ruckingkiwi says...

It depends where you're looking from. Berk.

Posted 09:53 08th May 2012

sandal says...

@ Pagra

But I don't believe the cat is out of the bag -- or if it is, it is so recently so that it can still be put back in!

Rugby hasn't sunk to the depths of soccer yet. We aren't yet watching people make pretty patterns on a playing field and imagining (erroneously) that they are doing it for us.

@lawynd

I think my examples are perfectly sound. What I am doing is comparing sportspeople whose only loyalty is that of the professional with sportspeople for whom place has meaning. Of course it doesn't make a jot of difference that the EPL is played in England -- the very essence of that sport is it doesn't matter where it is played. I merely cited examples that I thought all here would be familiar with.

@APV1

You didn't just overcook that one, you burnt it to a cinder.

Posted 07:14 06th May 2012

pagra says...

@ Sandal..Well I see your point in that there could be a mercenary quality from a cynical perspective to hiring non-national coaches. Also are you sure you have a good candidate and not just someone hired on reputation alone..But the cat is out of the bag. There is no reason not to appoint the best available man for the job when many others are and have been doing it in recent past. Whatever organization adopts that attitude would put themselves at a distinct disadvantage. And remember, not all home-boy coaches are the right fit. If you doubt that look at the French debacle in the RWC.

Personally I wish Lancaster well. He did a good job on short notice with a pretty raw crew.

Posted 03:09 05th May 2012

APV1 says...

@ Trader2 - the RFU are developing the "juniors". Just have a look at how well we compete at Age Grade and Saxons level.

@ thewickerman - he didn't take, "the next best option", he took the best option..!

@ sandal - you're missing the point, my friend. We don't buy them, they come running to us, away from the awful places they were born. Such is the dire state of rugby development and structure in every other country; and such is the poor standard of rugby being played in every other country; and such is the corruption, cheating and crooked nature of everything in every other coutry, these players actively seek us out. Who wouldn't want to live and play in the best country in the world - ENGLAND?!

(Too much..?)

;-)

Posted 10:32 04th May 2012

sandal says...

pagra says...

""In this age of "professionalism" wtf is the difference who coaches what? ""

The difference, pagra, is that in international sport "England" is supposed to mean England -- not whomever England can buy.

Because that still applies, by and large, national rugby teams don't all play the same style of rugby. England and New Zealand, for instance, play entirely different brands of rugby. And as New Zealand's national character has changed, so has the rugby played by the All Blacks. World rugby is all the richer for it.

But if you want to see what you get when the only loyalty is professional loyalty, watch the football of the English Premiership. And ask yourself, has it one half of the passion of, for instance, Australia's State of Origin rugby league?

Posted 06:16 04th May 2012

Trader2 says...

@Cass402 Yes that is another way to look at it but I feel in Englands case, with the money I presume the RFU have, would be better spend it on developing their own talent be it players or coaches. It is interesting that the English FA are now desperate to appoint an English coach, isn't there a lesson there? Anyway you guys obviously think a little different as per @pagra comments but if Mike Catt ever wins an AB coaching role (I don't care how good he is and he seems a nice guy) then it will be time for me to mothball the black jersey (not earned just purchased I hasten to add).

Posted 23:38 03rd May 2012

Cass402 says...

@ Trader, i'm not from New Zealand so i cant comment on the burning ambition of kiwi kids but i do have massive respect for the way in which the country as a whole embraces rugby as THE sport for the youth to aspire to...unfortunately the same is not true in England so this in turn affects how we view the sport. As rugby in NZ borders on near religion it is viewed by many with the same fervour which possibly leads to a misunderstanding of the dynamics here in which rugby has to struggle against football primarily and also the raft of other sports which have grown in the last 10-15 years. I'm not trying to pick a fight here old mate, just trying to offer a different slant on the persective.

I didnt mean that players "buy" into the black shirt in a fiscal sense, more that they have to understand the huge responsibility which comes with selection as has been described by several players especially after a loss.

Cheers

Posted 17:37 03rd May 2012

heathy says...

@ APV1 - Yes he is! - Berk. He was born and bred in South Africa. He came to England after leaving school and qualified for England as he has an English mother.

@ jonesy2 - Still at it? I'm actually not really sure why you post on here as you never have anything intelligent or constructive to say.

Folks, don't ask to be educated by the village idiot. You know where that gets you. However, if you want to learn how to maintain a huge chip on your shoulder then ask jonesy2 as he is certainly your man for that!

I think it is a shame re Wayne Smith but I understand his position. He hasn't snubbed anybody by all accounts. Just weighed it all up and thought 'no'. That's fair enough. He was certainly interested though or else he wouldn't have gone through the process.

Posted 11:45 03rd May 2012

Cass402 says...

@Trader, think you've misread my point regarding Pacific Island born players...what i meant was that in my view there isnt a problem from me with the issue, if they're good enough and the end product is good on the field and they've bought into what wearing the black shirt means then groovy. I am baffled as to why there is an issue with who England select to play for them...from what i've seen it means as much to them in the white shirt. Rugby is ulimately about entertainment and winning...if we tick both of those boxes then happy days.

Posted 09:37 03rd May 2012

Trader says...

Ah @lawynd the boots on the other foot is - don't like it do we? Mind you it's a bit hard to swallow your line that because many of ancesters came from the UK and Ireland 200 years ago that we should now be very happy to go back and represent "our" countries. I presume that is your point, then again I only speak from the antipodean peanut gallery.

And Cass402 it was the NH "peanut gallery" that started the pacific island thing in an attempted slight of NZ's rugby success the difference has always been that 90% of NZ's Pacific Islanders have gone there as children with their families, you could not say that about some of Englands recent imports - and I don't include Catt in that.

Posted 15:52 02nd May 2012